Every Tuesday we have an in-depth conversation with one person or on one topic. This week we are talking about the politics of the MeToo movement from the time of Anita Hill to Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin. Anita Hill was a young lawyer who, back inwent public with sexual harassment allegations against Clarence Thomas.
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin Clarence Thomas, current Supreme Court justice. Back in '91, he was still waiting to be confirmed for that seat. Hill trusted her story to. So I wanted to talk with Nina about that, this kind of MeToo moment before we actually had a name for it. Yamiche and I got to know each other covering the election inand she's been covering the MeToo movement and how it's playing out on Capitol Hill now.
So the three of us get into a lot in this chat - what is different about MeToo in politics and how these issues play out in D.
We also get into some generational differences between women and how they view sexual harassment. And, a warning for parents. If you normally listen to this podcast with kids, just a heads up. This entire conversation deals with sex and sexual assault. So know that going in. I'm so excited to talk to you because you're, like, someone who broke this really big story. And you're, like, a legend. So I'm trying not fangirl.
So we are having a conversation about the story that has been here and it's not going away, and I think that's my first question to you both.
When the Weinstein story happened, which was months ago at this point, I said to myself, this is big, it's going to be a big thing for a while. But I expected the country to move away from this topic a month or two after that. It seems like it's not going away. Have you been surprised by the longevity of the MeToo movement so far? And by the intensity of the way young women feel and their inability - or many, many young women have an - seem to have an inability or an unwillingness to draw any lines between Harvey Weinstein's kind of conduct, and just
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin boorish kind of conduct and just guys making a pass and failing kind of conduct.
I haven't surprised by the endurance in that I think gender, much like race is something that is so personal and so touching to so many different communities that Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin you start to surface, you realize that everyone, almost, has a story.
So I think there's this idea that for a very, very long time, we've been talking about race in this country. I'm one of those reporters who thinks that we should continue to always talk about race because it is something that is completely part of the fabric of America.
So I think some people maybe for the first time are finding out that the way that women are treated sometimes unfairly is also part of an American culture or capitalist society, whatever you want to call it.
So there's this idea that most women that I've talked to in the months that this has broken have a story that, if it's not something that is overtly assault, it's something that said, wow, I had to get over this and I had to normalize this behavior in order to do my job. Is it a thing, Nina, where you look back and say, well, I was like that when I was their age? Or is it something different?
And I got catcalled in the lobby of the House of Representatives where members would sit there and just dissect me as I walked - verbally as I walked down the I don't even remember. And, you know, they would just say, hey, you want to come here? Sit on my lap, honey? You know, that kind of thing. And I did interviews with men who would just
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin at my chest and not my face. And I had a boss who was Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin over me like a rug every time he asked for a ride home.
He would somehow arrange not to. And it never occurred to me in those days that I could even tell anybody Just got to clarify.
This boss that was creepy in your car, please tell me he didn't work at NPR. It just didn't exist. So I am from what I call the suck-it-up generation. And you have to assume that we have a different view. But, having said that, I spent decades being an advocate for young women And sometimes counseling them that you have to pick your battles. And if somebody
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin you a compliment, said you looked nice, that was not worth having a big fight about.
Other things were - whether or not you got the job, whether you had to do anything to get the job Whether anybody touched you to - you know, all of that. So I've thought through, and I have some pretty clear lines, but they are not, probably, the same lines that Yamiche has.
You know, hearing Nina talk about this divide, perhaps, between generations of women, have you seen that too, as a young woman covering this movement, too?
I don't - I mean, I don't think that I can talk that much about whether or not there's a divide there because I've mainly been talking to women have actually, I think, had stories that most people, including my editors or producers, thought was problematic. So there's this idea that of course there's a gray area.
Do you - does one person being raped and another person being catcalled repeatedly, is that the same thing? think most women I talk to understand that that's completely different things. The issue, though, is that with millennial women that I've talked to they say that they are less likely
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin want to even blow past something.
So they're not going to just let a guy who is continuing to harass them at work, what might have been called, you know, something before - just hitting on them and being persistent - they're not going to let that behavior fly. But most women I've talked to, even they're telling me, like, you know, I really didn't like that my supervisor sent me a whole bunch of pictures and continued to send me these pictures - I talked to a young woman like that - she recognized that that was different than someone who got fired maybe because of a gender issue or someone who got assaulted physically.
I think women inherently understand the difference. One of the interesting things that I want to talk to you both about is how much there was a MeToo before there was a MeToo. And there are a lot of different points in our history where these issues have come to the forefront, but I want to lock in on one.
And this is a story, Nina, that you broke. This is Weekend Edition. A woman who served as personal assistant to Clarence Thomas for over two years has accused him of sexually harassing her. The Anita Hill story. This was involving the confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas, who is now on the Supreme Court. National Public Radio has learned that the woman brought her accusation to the Senate Judiciary Committee last month. According to Hill's affidavit, Thomas, after a brief work discussion, would, quote, "turn conversation to discussions about his sexual interests.
He spoke about acts he had seen in pornographic films involving such things
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin women having sex with animals, and films involving group sex or rape scenes. Hill said she repeatedly told Thomas she did not want to discuss those kinds of things, but sensed that her apparent disgust only urged him Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin. Justice Thomas was the second African-American appointed to the Supreme Court, nominated by the first President Bush, and he denied it in his testimony, calling it a high-tech lynching.
This is a circus. It's a national disgrace. It is a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves. And it is a message that unless you kowtow to an old order, you will be lynched, destroyed, caricatured by a committee of the U.
Senate, than hung from a tree. And just - I mean, like, some of the things that she described are so out there, like pubic hair on a soda can.
Just really strange stuff. According to her, he said at one point, did you put this pubic hair on my Coke? Or something like that, and that he'd talk to her in very explicit ways.
He spoke about acts that he had seen in pornographic films involving such matters as women having sex with animals, and films showing group sex or rape scenes. He talked about pornographic materials depicting individuals with large penises or large breasts involved in various sex acts.
On several occasions, Thomas told me graphically of his own sexual prowess. And so I mean, you know, like, there is, I think, a direct line between that and where we are now. What is the biggest difference you see, perhaps, in the way that Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin kind of issues were handled then and the way they're handled now?
And, I mean, perhaps the biggest question is do you think that Clarence Thomas, had those stories come out today, been able to be confirmed to the Supreme Court?
You know, this is a good question. Certainly the hearing would have been more thorough. There were other women who had similar stories that the committee didn't call. Senator Biden, former Vice President Biden was chairman of the committee then and he decided not to call them and has apologized to Anita Hill now for not calling them and for not being more expansive in the investigation. But I don't know. He was a Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin persuasive witness, and she was a very persuasive witness.
If you didn't have actual information, and it was as we said back then a he said, she said It was very hard to tell. You either found her credible and simply found him not credible, or you said - but she was treated as, by Republicans on the committee, as a delusional person.
Professor Hill, you said that you took it to mean that Judge Thomas wanted to have sex with you but, in fact, he never did ask you to
Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin sex. No, he did not ask me to have sex. He did continually pressure me to go out with him continually. It was my opinion at the time and is now my opinion that Ms. Aziz ansari stand up dating garmin, share aziz ansari stand up: Follow her on Twitter.
And I don't like texting people,
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